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Highlands First & Defending Gallot Hub

 
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Farrell



Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 125
Location: Portland, ME, USA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:32 pm    Post subject: Highlands First & Defending Gallot Hub Reply with quote

Wow, what a pickle.

Arrow Option 1: Inform the CID/CEF. Give them everything we have and what we can get out of Blia, and let them deal with the situation. As has been pointed out, this then leaves people in the CID's hands who know the Talons and their procedures, safehouses, etc. It also runs the risk of the H.F. setting off the nuke if they think they're about to lose it.

Arrow Option 2: Capture the base and Highlands First people. Same risk of the nuke being set off, not to mention the issue of how to detain the H.F. without honking the Liberati off, let alone the manpower required.

Arrow Option 3: Fake them out. Using Dimitri and Delgado -- IF our reps with them haven't been damaged -- we get part of BT05 in at the base, somewhere close to the nuke(s) and the component(s). Then we have the other part of the team stage an attack, posing as the CEF and/or CID. The BT05 people in the base point out that detonating the bomb while not in the ideal location would be a waste of time, and that if the Liberati can hold off the CEF, they'll evac the bomb and materials. They just so happen to "escape" the clutches of the faux-CEF, who disappear in pursuit. The Derrik clan counts themselves lucky. If questioned, BT05 says the CEF caught up with them and destroyed the transport carrying the bomb/equipment/etc.

Option 3 is certainly complicated, but it accomplishes several goals:

1) Prevents the Derrik Clan from making nukes. That means stealing what rare raw materials they have, destroying the equipment used to make them, or killing the people with the expertise.

2) Prevents this from becoming an incident that sours relations with the Liberati. That means if anyone dies, it HAS to look like the CID or CEF. At the very least, the fate of these people who are taking matters into their own hands is a Liberati affair, which we aren't entitled to pass judgement on.

3) Minimal to no casualties. Any deaths are probably just going to spur the Derrik clan to new levels of violence and vengeance-inspired actions.

4) Stop the bomb. Someone's going to have to go in there and be physically present to prevent the bomb from going off by local and/or remote detonator, and be responsible for getting it out of their hands.

Why even bother stopping the bomb?

Bringing in IRL data, a 1 megaton nuclear device at ground zero will produce a mushroom cloud going up 10 miles into the troposphere, covering a circle with a diameter of 20 miles.

The Trench, I imagine, is far less than 10 miles tall, and the troposphere here likely ends right at the top of the Trench. That means the cloud isn't going to be able to spread up so much as it will outwards, so I'd expect a bigger diameter of fallout.

This is a lot of hot, radioactive air, carrying radioactive dust going up, and remember that a good bit of oxygen is going to burn up. Remember those old movies of atomic bomb testing where you see the shockwave coming out, but then a sort of "blow back" at the end? That's going to move some air.

As it spreads out in the air, it's going to hit the upper levels, where your VIPs and top-notch services are. I haven't seen anything on rain on Caprice, so it's safe to assume that any radioactive fallout is going to just SIT there as dust and ash. Eventually, it'll drift downwards by means of breezes, the air wash from rotors or hover systms, or just getting tracked about.

There's also considerable seismic risk. This isn't a big slit in the ground, it's a big slit in the ground where people have dug into the walls, into mesas, and built things on top of other things. Given Caprice seems to have no real natural water, and too little atmosphere on the surface to cause major erosion, one has to ask how the Trench even wound up existing in the first place...

Then ask yourself what happens if enough radioactive dust gets up high enough to start circulating around the planet? The Liberati have no defenses for this kind of thing.

Radiation sickness isn't a fast thing, and it's not like you need exposure to high amounts of it -- just sufficiently large enough amounts over time. And it's not a pretty disease. (Read "On The Beach" some time.)

If you're still not convinced, have Delgado find out just how much damage a bomb could do just from the radiation. Then ask yourselves if the CEF has enough equipment out of harm's way to help treat these people, because I doubt their hospitals do.

Also, keep in mind this bomb cannot possibly be going off anywhere within Paladin Lots. That means the center of the blast will be outside the Lots, clearly making it a terrorist act. Of those people on the planet, the Liberati would certainly be the first suspects, given their mining skills and knowledge of deposits. An explosion like this could start a jihad against the Liberati, and then we lose our only allies outside of the Trench.

I'd love to say convincing these people (and Blia) is possible, but it's not.

This is all my opinion only, and I'm stickin' to it.
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Farrell



Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 125
Location: Portland, ME, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:41 am    Post subject: Update Reply with quote

Regarding the bomb and the fact that it was in the camp:

<Sajioshi> It was useless where they had it when you met them. way too far from Paladin Lots

This opens up another option:

Arrow Option 4: Seize the bomb while it is being moved to its final location. This might allow us to stop the threat with a minimum of casualties, and we can alert the Liberati so they can say how we should deal with the threat. (There are THEIR people, and it is THEIR planet. Should they decide that this is the course of action they desire, then I think we're expected to honor it.)
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Farrell



Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 125
Location: Portland, ME, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:51 pm    Post subject: Planning Discussion on IRC from 3-16-08 Reply with quote

[19:50:42] <Sajioshi> you guys should plan what BT05's gonna do right now, without Jester here ;)
[19:52:04] <Farrell> ::shrug:: Give us a map of the place the nuke is being held at, let us know if recon reported any move by the Highlands to move out, and Delgado to tell us if the radiation could spread planet-wide given the other Liberati's attempts to spread more atmo.
[19:52:26] <Farrell> Also, for obvious reasons, Gotah needs to be notified to see if he has any orders to pass along.
[19:53:10] <LrdVampyre> we don't have time...if we are going to get that nuke we need to move in now, or call the CID
[19:53:22] <Farrell> Then we notify Gotah and don't wait for a response or orders.
[19:54:11] <Farrell> And I've suggested a plan already: http://talons.mcc3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=292
[19:54:17] <Farrell> Option #3 in specific.
[19:55:34] <Sajioshi> i can get you a map by tomorrow if you want to do tactical planning, but i'm cooking ;)
[19:55:44] <LrdVampyre> in all honesty, complex plans do not do anything for me...the simpler the better
[19:56:00] <LrdVampyre> besides, how are we supposed to look like CID/CEF forces?
[19:56:11] <Farrell> We still have a captured Frame, do we not? ;)
[19:56:15] <Sajioshi> there haven't been any reports from the other Talon teams about Highlands First moving out at all. and I'd want to see a Meteorology roll before I gave you info about the long term effects of the radiation
[19:56:30] <Farrell> ::nods:: So, ::boot to the head for Roland::
[19:56:31] <Sajioshi> Anyone who wants can make a notice/psy cpx 2 roll if you're calling Gotah.
[19:56:53] <Farrell> Brad, I'm giving you 5 minutes to make that roll if you want before I go over both Tynes and Mem's heads.
[19:57:07] <LrdVampyre> what's your psy?
[19:57:30] <Farrell> You really have to ask? ;)
[19:57:38] <Sajioshi> Mem would get a +1 to that roll
[19:57:40] <Farrell> +2 of course. ;)
[19:57:51] <Brad> Roll what?
[19:57:54] <Farrell> And Detro *has* gone over their heads before to talk to Gotah. (EDIT: He went over other people's heads to talk to Jane.)
[19:57:56] <LrdVampyre> also, another problem with using Dimitri and Delgado again is that they went in and then disappeared during an attack along with Blia
[19:58:05] <LrdVampyre> I don't think that they are going to let those two back in
[19:58:22] <LrdVampyre> and i doubt they're going to be sticking around for too much longer
[19:59:25] <Brad> What are we calling Gotah for, and why does it need a roll?
[20:00:22] <Farrell> First off, how would you aler tthe CID. Second, they're not going to believe us.
[20:01:09] <Farrell> Third, you're handing them individuals who have knowledge of how the Liberati operate and in specific, operations in the Trench. Possibly even including the upcoming raid on Bastille Alpha.
[20:01:52] <LrdVampyre> then if you don't want CID involved, we have to deal with this directly and quickly
[20:02:09] <Farrell> If you do that, when word gets to the Liberati, we become murderers.
[20:02:14] <LrdVampyre> as for contacting CID, i'm pretty sure with our computer skills in this group we could figure something out
[20:02:32] <LrdVampyre> And we aren't murderers already?
[20:02:50] <LrdVampyre> look, we have really two choices here, deal with this ourselves or get Earth to deal with it.
[20:03:02] <Farrell> I don't believe in the no-win scenario.
[20:03:12] <LrdVampyre> so we ignore it then
[20:03:29] <LrdVampyre> If you are so afraid of losing a faction of the Liberati, then we let them be
[20:03:36] <LrdVampyre> which is still a no-win scenario
[20:04:10] <Sajioshi> i'll lift up the GMs screen a moment here to say that there's no happy way out of this that I can think of. you have to choose what's more improtant to you, that's all
[20:04:50] <dakabn> may I snicker at how you guys are screws?
[20:05:01] <Farrell> You're not losing a faction. You're risking giving the CID detailed information about Liberati operations, and by proxy, risking Talon operations.
[20:05:26] <Dimitri> Realistically, we would be best to actually go in ourselves.
[20:05:33] <Dimitri> Nobody else would have a fast enough reaction time in this scenario.
[20:05:52] <Farrell> If the Liberati are aware we took Blia and are a threat to them, what do you think their first reaction will be?
[20:05:56] <LrdVampyre> i hate to point this out, but we have, through our own actions, put Talon operations in jeopardy
[20:06:19] <Dimitri> Farrell: Well , if your content to let them sit with the nukes, that's up to you.
[20:06:40] <LrdVampyre> enough of hypotheticals...we can sit here for days debating the what ifs
[20:06:44] <Dimitri> to be frank. Dimitri dosen't give a damn. He saved Blia. Even if she may hate him for it. The balls in your guys court. But they're going to go slaughter more people from the looks of it.
[20:07:23] <LrdVampyre> this group of liberati are planning on using that nuke soon, hence why Blia likely contacted Dimitri and Delgado and told them to get out now
[20:07:38] <Farrell> I'm going to play a hunch here.
[20:07:47] <Farrell> They won't set it off without Blia, or knowing where she is.
[20:07:52] <Dimitri> The fact more talons showed up before the nuke. Suggests that Blia already leaked out intel.
[20:07:54] <LrdVampyre> why not
[20:08:26] <Dimitri> I can argue that. The Liberati extremeists have already demonstrated with their planning, they don't care about friendly fire. Remotely.
[20:08:27] <LrdVampyre> they are capable miners, they might not get the best placement to inflict the most damage, but they're still going to go through with it
[20:08:33] <LrdVampyre> they are fanatics after all
[20:08:47] <Dimitri> Oh no. We might blow up some Alien that dissapeared. I doubt that's the words they'd use.
[20:09:04] <Dimitri> Thing is, there probably is more of the materials. But if we secured this stuff. At the very least we'd hinder their operations.
[20:10:16] <Farrell> What level was this base on?
[20:12:30] <Farrell> It was the bottom level, right?
[20:12:57] <LrdVampyre> no idea
[20:13:18] <Sajioshi> it was on Beta
[20:13:24] <Farrell> So next to bottom most level.
[20:13:31] <Sajioshi> correct
[20:13:34] <Farrell> $10 says the nuke's not there.
[20:13:47] <Farrell> That is, if Paladin Lots starts at ALPHA level, which it does IIRC.
[20:13:54] <Sajioshi> you mean it's been moved, or that it was never there?
[20:14:01] <Farrell> That it's probably been moved.
[20:14:03] <LrdVampyre> um...it was there when delgado and dimitri where there
[20:14:09] <Sajioshi> that's likely.
[20:14:16] <Farrell> Moved since then ;)
[20:15:00] <Farrell> If you're going to blow up Paladin Lots, do you do it at the bottom-most level where it's pretty much anarchy and easier to move around, or a level up, and risk the remote chance of some fortification deep under the Lots surviving?
[20:15:27] <LrdVampyre> how long did it take to get the team out of the camp?
[20:16:14] <LrdVampyre> and were there any vehicles in the camp at the time?
[20:16:22] <Farrell> If we had a WMD and grenades started going off in YOUR camp, would you leave the bomb there?
[20:16:37] <Sajioshi> bottom of Paladin Lots is very clean, and difficult to enter.
[20:16:52] <Farrell> Yeah, but it's pretty clear they aren't setting the bomb off IN the Lots.
[20:16:58] <LrdVampyre> they aren't going to detonate in PL...they're going for a fault line in the trench
[20:17:17] <Farrell> So tell me where the fault line is.
[20:17:21] <LrdVampyre> and again, were there any vehicles in the camp when the team went in?
[20:17:43] <Farrell> I'm guessing that's a NatSci/Geology skill perhaps?
[20:18:06] <Sajioshi> yeah, you'll need a geology roll
[20:18:12] * Farrell is now known as Detro
[20:18:24] <Brad> Why did you want me to roll for contacting Gotah?
[20:18:50] <Detro> To apprise him of the current situation, and to give him the option to get the other Talons out of Dodge before it goes nuclear perhaps?
[20:19:02] <Detro> !skill Geology KNO
[20:19:03] <Lemon> Detro, your Natural Science (Geology) roll result is ( 5 ) + (2 KNO) + (0 Mod) + (0 Wounds) : 7
[20:19:05] <Detro> ^- That's CPX 1
[20:19:31] <Detro> -1 if you want that as an APP or FIT, -2 if you want it as BLD :)
[20:20:03] <Detro> Specifically, the level the fault is at, which I'm assuming should be bottom-most in the area.
[20:22:39] <Sajioshi> the fault's in the wall of the Trench, not in the floor. It's the southern wall o the Umberto arm.
[20:23:25] <Brad> I'm sure Gotah is kept informed. Why does it have to be rolled, is what I'm asking.
[20:24:02] <Sajioshi> Gotah's got no idea what you guys are doing right now.
[20:24:32] <Brad> Why not?
[20:24:48] <Dimitri> Gabriels trying to turn us to Slaneesh that's why
[20:25:35] <Detro> Because communicating over distance is likely A) difficult, and B) potentially gives away either our position or his.
[20:25:41] <LrdVampyre> all i know is that we haven't been contacting Gotah on a regular basis
[20:29:50] <Detro> If the nuke's no good in its present position, it'll have to be moved. That's when it'll be most vulnerable.
[20:32:44] * Sajioshi ods
[20:32:57] <Sajioshi> it was useless where they had it when you met them. way too far from Paladin Lots
[20:33:06] <Detro> And it should be just the bomb that we go for. We don't have the resources or locations to sit on 20+ Liberati until we can smuggle them out of the Trench to a secure location, nor do we have MPs or anything with us.
[20:33:22] <LrdVampyre> ...
[20:33:52] <LrdVampyre> we have no active surveliance on the group at this moment...so how are we going to find them if we don't go for them at the camp now?
[20:34:15] <Detro> We had active surveilance on that camp while Dimitri and Delgado were there, and they have their own eyewitness reports to toss in.
[20:34:32] <Detro> If you look around a camp or staging area for even a brief while, you should have some idea of how many people are there.
[20:34:39] <LrdVampyre> that was 1/2 hour to an hour ago
[20:35:07] <LrdVampyre> we pulled out all resources so we have old data to go with
[20:35:08] <Detro> Also, did you guys detect the BOMB or the materials being used to MAKE the bomb?
[20:35:28] <LrdVampyre> it was Scotty who detected it
[20:35:35] <Sajioshi> Scildfreja said she detected something she called a "tacpack"
[20:35:51] <Detro> So in other words, we don't even know it's a bomb for sure. ;)
[20:36:13] <Detro> That we could have picked up some extra uranium, or radioactivity from things around used to make the bomb.
[20:36:22] <Sajioshi> if that's what you take from her statement, sure.
[20:36:38] <Detro> Well, unless she or Scotty decide to explain "Tacpack"...
[20:37:25] <Sajioshi> you have yet to ask her about it ;)
[20:37:32] <Dimitri> You know.. we could always just blow up Caprice ;)
[20:37:37] <Dimitri> solves all these dilemmas
[20:37:45] <Detro> <Detro> So what is this "tacpack" you keep referring to?
[20:40:20] <Sajioshi> Scildfreja> ::After a moments' hesitation - or irritation - she replies, soft-spoken:: Tactical nuclear device.
[20:41:01] <Detro> And this is the part where we learn that the Utopians tried to make contact with the Liberati, wound up doing so with the Highlands First, and that they're responsible for giving them those plans?
[20:41:32] <LrdVampyre> ::facepalm::
[20:41:34] <Sajioshi> heh, no ;)
[20:42:33] <Detro> You don't get to facepalm until you start asking some questions too. ;P
[20:42:47] <Sajioshi> do you ask anything like that?
[20:43:01] <LrdVampyre> i don't know, tacpack to me sounds like a tactical explosive
[20:44:18] <Detro> I'd ask if it's possible the Highlands First could have gotten the plans for a tacpack. Worst case scenario is that we're going to wind up getting our hands on a live nuke and a countdown, and if it IS a tacpack, we'd need to know how to disarm it.
[20:45:00] <LrdVampyre> who were they working with? Blia...maybe she gave them the design
[20:45:09] <Detro> ::nods:: Blia, and spacers are the other alternatives.
[20:45:10] <LrdVampyre> or maybe, just maybe, they engineered one themselves
[20:45:21] <Detro> That as well.
[20:45:39] <Dimitri> Well Blia won't be in the condition to answer questions, not just yet
[20:46:04] <LrdVampyre> and i'm thinking Blia didn't give them that
[20:46:11] <LrdVampyre> i think she helped them get the material
[20:46:27] <Detro> It's remotely possible Blia helped them. Remember she does have censored parts of her record.
[20:46:30] <Sajioshi> Scildfreja explains that the term "tacpack" is more a classification of weapon, and not a specific sort of weapon.
[20:46:38] <Sajioshi> as in maybe there's such thing as a Stratpack.
[20:47:24] <LrdVampyre> how do you mean remotely possible that she helped them?
[20:47:35] <LrdVampyre> i'm thinking it might be rather obvious
[20:47:45] <Detro> ::shrugs:: Terra Nova has NBC teams, IIRC. Which implies the possibility of some sort of nuclear corps.
[20:48:09] <LrdVampyre> but whether or not she helped them or how they got the bomb in the first place is rather moot
[20:48:21] <Detro> ::nods:: The focus here is getting the bomb.
[20:48:24] <LrdVampyre> we have a live nuke in the trench in the hands of fanatics that needs to be dealt with
[20:48:46] <Detro> Dealing with the fanatics is secondary, and IMO best left to the Liberati themselves.
[20:48:49] <LrdVampyre> so drop the hypotheticals of the make and model of the bomb and focus on the getting
[20:49:04] <LrdVampyre> umm...i doubt they are going to peacefully hand over their bomb
[20:49:20] <Detro> I'm not saying that. I'm saying any survivors of us getting the bomb are the Liberati's to deal with.
[20:50:29] <LrdVampyre> Colin, what does Melissa have in terms of available recon drones right now?
[20:50:46] <Detro> So we try to capture the nuke at their current base (not likely), in transit to the final location, or at the final location (Which we know the general area of but not specifically where it will be.)
[20:52:18] <Sajioshi> Sleca and the Spidhras, and your Scorpion.
[20:53:01] <LrdVampyre> somehow that scorpion isn't going to be making it there fast enough...is the octopus on hand?
[20:53:11] <Sajioshi> sure can. no tealth on the thing though
[20:53:12] <Sajioshi> stealth, even
[20:53:45] <LrdVampyre> kk...would the Utopians be willing to send their uber stealth drone in for a look? assuming it can get there quickly?
[20:54:27] <Sajioshi> Scildfreja can show you how to issue orders to Sleca effectively, and is willing to give you user status on him.
[20:54:48] <LrdVampyre> awesome
[20:54:54] <Sajioshi> or one of the Spidhras if you prefer.
[20:55:12] <Detro> ::grin::
[20:55:18] <LrdVampyre> i need speed, and stealth...though the spiders did awesome surverliance
[20:55:29] <LrdVampyre> and i promise to bring it all back in one piece
[20:56:03] <Sajioshi> Sleca can run about as fast as a horse. The spidhras are slower.
[20:56:40] <LrdVampyre> then, Sleca
[20:56:50] <Detro> Hmm. Center of the hub... too many ways to take the bomb...
[20:56:55] <Detro> erre, center of the trench that is.
[20:57:00] <Sajioshi> a Spidhra can be carried by a Waeps, though, which is capable of flying
[20:57:12] <LrdVampyre> that's even better
[20:57:47] <Detro> Hmmm
[20:58:21] <Detro> Is there any way to fire a tracer round out of a sniper rifle... or better yet, off of one of those drones?
[20:58:53] <LrdVampyre> i assume you mean a homing signal device
[20:58:57] <Detro> Might help improve our odds if the bomb gets mobile and we're not in position to intercept yet. // ::nods::
[20:59:08] <Detro> Sorry, not tracer-tracer round. Tracking. Homing Signal.
[20:59:17] <Detro> Wow. That was a major verbal gaffe, heh
[21:00:39] <Sajioshi> depends on the tracking beacon you want to use. small ones would have bad range. big one would have better range
[21:02:17] <Detro> Hmm.
[21:03:06] <Detro> But better range == more likely to be noticed.
[21:03:16] <LrdVampyre> heh, if they are moving on truck, just get the spider onto the underside of the vehicle...
[21:03:57] <Detro> It'd be small enough to do that?
[21:05:12] <LrdVampyre> i don't know, from the impression i've gotten of the drone, it could
[21:05:19] <LrdVampyre> in my opinion that is
[21:05:22] <Detro> If it can, that's the better way to go.
[21:06:26] <Detro> It also means that if need be, maybe it can act to stop the truck or slow it down to let us intercept it.
[21:09:29] <Sajioshi> octopi are the size of a V-engine, plus arms
[21:09:48] <LrdVampyre> hehe
[21:12:07] <dakabn> ouchers
[21:13:52] <Detro> Heh. If we had more time I'd say, take the arms off and actually install it as the engine to a van or something they'd use.
[21:23:13] <Detro> As silly as that is
[21:23:32] <Detro> What I'd give to have KITT's "Microjam" system.
[21:23:46] <LrdVampyre> Two words: Heavy Laser
[21:24:21] * dakabn (~lcox@S0106001a920f741d.ed.shawcable.net) Quit (Ping timeout)
[21:25:35] <Detro> :;shoots the vehicle. It careens out of control and crashes. As you get close, you can see a survivor in the back of the van, pinned by the bomb itself. He grins a bloody grin, then slams his hand down on the detonator, setting the bomb off... there is a bright flash, and... roll up new characters."
[21:30:33] <Detro> Wait, n/m. That's "There is a Bright Flash and... BT05, Take Two will return in 3 months."
[21:31:09] <Detro> :)


And for your moment of amusement:
[19:39:25] <Farrell> LOL. This one scene in "Battle of the Bulge"... Lieutenant barely escapes a massacre, is on the run. Finds a whole bunch of enlisted guys, who are so happy to see an officer, they start pestering the officer, saying they haven't eaten in hours, they're lost, they want to know if they should surrender.
[19:39:35] <Farrell> For the briefest second, I thought "Poor Sajioshi."
[19:39:55] <Sajioshi> heh heh heh
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